New weapon range ideas

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New weapon range ideas

Postby VitorFaria » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:31 pm

Idea 1: "Sniping" range

New range that combines both direct fire and artillery ranges (Unit 2 to infinity). Would need a considerable weakness to balance, I believe something related to cover would be the way to go. Maybe not being able to destroy cover, target cover or maybe even shoot enemies in cover. Would need some hardcore play-testing to tune it. Hits on 5s and 6s.

Idea 2: "Shotgun" range

I know that shotguns don't behave like that in the real life, I'm open to suggestions on a better name.
The concept is: ranged weapon that ignores cover completely, like HtH weapons, but only hits on 5s and 6s. Would need some hardcore play-testing to decide how far out it would go, maybe Units 1 to 4 on the ruler, if too strong would roll it back to 1 to 3.

What you folks think?
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby CmdrRook » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:43 pm

Spray or Blast range? I like the idea of the short range weapon that ignores cover. Sniping seems a bit much, however. A split system represents the drawbacks and flexibility of such a weapon already, I'm my opinion.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Mantisking » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:06 pm

VitorFaria wrote:Idea 1: "Sniping" range

New range that combines both direct fire and artillery ranges (Unit 2 to infinity). Would need a considerable weakness to balance, I believe something related to cover would be the way to go. Maybe not being able to destroy cover, target cover or maybe even shoot enemies in cover. Would need some hardcore play-testing to tune it. Hits on 5s and 6s.

Only works every other turn for a limitation?

VitorFaria wrote:Idea 2: "Shotgun" range

I know that shotguns don't behave like that in the real life, I'm open to suggestions on a better name.
The concept is: ranged weapon that ignores cover completely, like HtH weapons, but only hits on 5s and 6s. Would need some hardcore play-testing to decide how far out it would go, maybe Units 1 to 4 on the ruler, if too strong would roll it back to 1 to 3.

What you folks think?

A Meson gun? Only works at 4 to 8 units maybe?
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Blorf » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:17 am

I would think of Shotgun range more like:
Hits on (distance to target minus 1) and above
Never ignores cover
Counts as only one system for scoring, but as both a direct fire and a hand to hand system for purposes of maximum systems per type. (Can't load a double of either with this attached.)

It would be brutal in close and out of cover, but fairly ineffective if you couldn't get that set up. Sounds like a shotgun to me!
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby VitorFaria » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:51 pm

Blorf wrote:Hits on (distance to target minus 1) and above


Not sure if I got this, could you elaborate on that?
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby CmdrRook » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:07 pm

VitorFaria wrote:
Blorf wrote:Hits on (distance to target minus 1) and above


Not sure if I got this, could you elaborate on that?


Enemy is four units away, so your damage dice hit on 3+. Enemy is eight units away, you can't hurt them.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby VitorFaria » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:35 pm

CmdrRook wrote:Enemy is four units away, so your damage dice hit on 3+. Enemy is eight units away, you can't hurt them.


Oh,got it, awesome!

That's a pretty sick suggestion, I'm afraid it would need some for of Nerf two units and closer, unless you want some pretty over the top damage counts!
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Blorf » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:51 am

VitorFaria wrote:That's a pretty sick suggestion, I'm afraid it would need some for of Nerf two units and closer, unless you want some pretty over the top damage counts!


I don't disagree, but didn't want to hijack your thread in a new direction trying to sort that out.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby MusicalMethuselah » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:38 am

Blorf wrote:I don't disagree, but didn't want to hijack your thread in a new direction trying to sort that out.


I love the idea of range affecting hit chance. Do you guys want to start a new thread about it or is using this thread ok?
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby VitorFaria » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:33 pm

Hijack this thread freely, it was meant to breed ideas above anything else!
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby MusicalMethuselah » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:29 am

Ok cool, I have a couple of thoughts that might aid the discussion. Definitely would need some work for 1,2, and 3 units away though.

For this shotgun having the damage/hit threshold depend on distance, I might suggest using distance/2 (rounded up) + 2 as the threshold to damage. Then...
1 unit away: 1/2 (rounded up = 1) + 2 = 3 to damage (3, 4, 5, and 6 deal damage)
2 units away: 2/2 + 2 = 3 to damage
3 units away: 3/2 + 2 = 4 to damage (4, 5, and 6 deal damage)
4 units away: 4/2 + 2 = 4 to damage
5 units away: 5/2 + 2 = 5 to damage
6 units away: 6/2 + 2 = 5 to damage
7 units away: 7/2 + 2 = 6 to damage
8 units away: 8/2 + 2 = 6 to damage

So you get a weapon that's very good at 1-4 units and just average to below average at 5-8 units, balanced by taking up two systems. This still feels powerful, though. Would you want to balance it with your system dice? Right now, it's almost a better HtH system, but if you could still only roll 2 red dice instead of adding a d8 for two systems, that might balance it.

OR the balance could be that cover adds another 1 to the threshold. So...
1 unit away: 3 to hit cover, 4 to damage
2 units away: 3 to hit cover, 4 to damage
3 units away: 4 to hit cover, 5 to damage (same as direct fire)
4 units away: 4 to hit cover, 5 to damage
5 units away: 5 to hit cover, 6 to damage
6 units away: 5 to hit cover, 6 to damage
7 units away: 6 to hit cover (hope to destroy cover enough to go back to the other table)
8 units away: 6 to hit cover

I was also thinking of just making it a table lookup, to keep ignoring cover, but the new values would be:
1 unit away: 3 to damage
2 units away: 3 to damage
3 units away: 4 to damage
4 units away: 5 to damage
5 units away: 6 to damage
6 units away and more: cannot damage

Then it's sort of balanced like a video game shotgun. Thoughts?
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Blorf » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:15 pm

Just some quick notes:
- I didn't say it always ignores cover... I said it never does! This reduces the power so that when it hits on 5/6, it's still a little less strong than a DF system.
- it doesn't take up two systems, but it prevents you from loading double H2H or DF systems and then putting this on top.
- regardless of how you derive it, a lookup table is probably better than a formula once you get into multiple operations. Both are less easy to manage while playing, which is why I avoided them. But it does leave the power to be resolved... I agree as written it's too strong in close.
- Maybe the range should be 3–8, preventing it from being used too closely? There's a lot of strategic choices in when to use it after that, as it loses the ability to smash a station defender and capture in the same turn. But it's no longer adding range choices, really. Intentionally trying to get/avoid 3 units away from something sets up some interesting area control dynamics.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby MusicalMethuselah » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:12 pm

Whoops, didn't know what I read there.

IDK, I think a loadout of this crazy system with HtH and Direct Fire would be pretty devastating, plus they get another system of choice? Wowzers. Just saying.

That said, I like only having 3-up range. Then, if you want, just have the range be the threshold to damage, and +1 if the target is in cover. Then:
1-2 units away: can't hit
3 units away: 3 to damage (or hit cover)
4 units away: 4 to damage
5 units away: 5 to damage
6 units away: 6 to damage
7+ units away: can't hit

Then it's devastating in a very niche range, and very easy to remember.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Mantisking » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:44 pm

Blorf wrote:I would think of Shotgun range more like:
Hits on (distance to target minus 1) and above
Never ignores cover
Counts as only one system for scoring, but as both a direct fire and a hand to hand system for purposes of maximum systems per type. (Can't load a double of either with this attached.)

It would be brutal in close and out of cover, but fairly ineffective if you couldn't get that set up. Sounds like a shotgun to me!

I've been mulling this one over and I came up with something a little different. Instead of "Hits on (distance to target minus 1) and above" have it Hit on (distance to target plus 1) and above. This gets you the following:
Range 1 = 2 to 6.
Range 2 = 3 to 6.
Range 3 = 4 to 6.
Range 4 = 5 to 6.
Range 5 = 6.
Range 6 = no damge.
Range 7 = no damage.
Range 8 = no damage.

It reduces the effective range and the damage possibilities.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby CmdrRook » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:10 pm

Mantisking wrote:Instead of "Hits on (distance to target minus 1) and above" have it Hit on (distance to target plus 1) and above. This gets you the following:
Range 1 = 2 to 6.
Range 2 = 3 to 6.
Range 3 = 4 to 6.
Range 4 = 5 to 6.
Range 5 = 6.
Range 6 = no damge.
Range 7 = no damage.
Range 8 = no damage.

It reduces the effective range and the damage possibilities.


How much more effective this weapon is than a dedicated h2h weapon terrifies me.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Mantisking » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:19 pm

Mantisking wrote:Instead of "Hits on (distance to target minus 1) and above" have it Hit on (distance to target plus 1) and above. This gets you the following:
Range 1 = 2 to 6.
Range 2 = 3 to 6.
Range 3 = 4 to 6.
Range 4 = 5 to 6.
Range 5 = 6.
Range 6 = no damge.
Range 7 = no damage.
Range 8 = no damage.

It reduces the effective range and the damage possibilities.
CmdrRook wrote:How much more effective this weapon is than a dedicated h2h weapon terrifies me.

Oh, it's totally terrifying and need restrictions. On the other hand, Blorf's would be the following:
Range 1 = 0 to 6.
Range 2 = 1 to 6.
Range 3 = 2 to 6.
Range 4 = 3 to 6.
Range 5 = 4 to 6.
Range 6 = 5 to 6.
Range 7 = 6.
Range 8 = no damage.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby VitorFaria » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:21 pm

I'm still searching for a cool name for my "ranged weapon that ignores cover" idea.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Blorf » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:33 pm

VitorFaria wrote:I'm still searching for a cool name for my "ranged weapon that ignores cover" idea.

I did warn you about the hijacking!

Railgun?
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Mantisking » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:34 pm

VitorFaria wrote:I'm still searching for a cool name for my "ranged weapon that ignores cover" idea.

In the Traveller rpg, there's a starship weapon called a Meson Gun that basically ignores cover.
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Re: New weapon range ideas

Postby Blorf » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:40 pm

Mantisking wrote:Oh, it's totally terrifying and need restrictions. On the other hand, Blorf's would be the following:
Range 1 = 0 to 6.
Range 2 = 1 to 6.
Range 3 = 2 to 6.
Range 4 = 3 to 6.
Range 5 = 4 to 6.
Range 6 = 5 to 6.
Range 7 = 6.
Range 8 = no damage.


... which we all agree isn't workable as it stands, even if it never passes through cover. To gain the benefit of accessing additional range, it should probably never be stronger than H2H.
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