Strategy Discussion: Company Build

General discussions about the game or building materials
Forum rules
This is a game - This is fun - All of your posts should reflect this

Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Ced23Ric » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:29 am

Okay,

So with the tidbits we have, we are getting close to being fully able to generate full companies, based on expectations, synergies and ideal loadouts. Let me go over the things real quick.

  • Systems
    • Every 'Frame can have a maximum of 4 systems.
    • Each system less adds to initiative. How much? Unsure at this moment.
    • Every 'Frame can have a maximum of 2 of each system. That holds true for each weapon range bracket aswell.
    (For example, you can have 2x Image systems, but not a third - or a even 2,5. You can, however, have 2x Image and 2x Image systems)
    .
  • Movement
    • 'Frames without Movement systems cannot move through cover.
    • 'Frames without Movement systems need their Image, or they cannot move at all.
    • Having Image adds the ability to move through cover, instead of around it. Instant range gain.
    • Having Image Image has no additional benefit.
    • Having no ranged weaponry adds Image and adds the ability to move through cover
    • Upon losing all ranged weapon systems, a 'Frame acquires the Image instantly.
    .
  • Spotting
    • 'Frames without Spotting systems cannot spot targets in cover and need their Image if they want to spot.
    • Having Image adds the ability to spot targets in cover within 8 units.
    • Having Image Image adds the ability to spot targets anywhere on the battlefield.
    • A spot roll is assigned to a spotted target and is used up when another friendly 'Frame fires at that target and declares to use it.
    • A 'Frame cannot spot for itself.
    .
  • Defense
    • 'Frames without Defense systems need their Image for Defense, or their value is considered to be 0.
    • Having Image has no additional benefit.
    • Having Image Image adds the ability to act as cover without taking damage.
    .
  • Weapons
    • One weapon system adds two dice of it's particular range.
    • More dice for weapon rolls do not mean more damage, but a higher likelihood of hitting.
    Image can be added to weapon rolls, but do not add more damage, but a higher likelihood of hitting aswell.
    .
    • Melee
      Image deal damage on a roll of 4,5 and 6, instead of 5 and 6 like other weapons. 18% more damage.
      Melee ignores cover.
      • Range is 1 unit.
      .
    • Direct-Fire
      Image deal damage 5 and 6.
      • Range is 2 - 8 units.
      .
    • Artillery
      Image deal damage 5 and 6.
      • Range is 9 - infinite units.
      .
    • Single Shot Rockets
      • For the purpose of determining Image bonus, a 'Frame with only Images counts as having no ranged weapons.
      • Range is the same as Image; 2 - 8 units.
      .
    • Double-Up
      • Having two of the same Weapon System adds Image, instead of Image Image (analog for artillery & melee).
      .
    • Split-Range
      • A Weapon System can add one die to two different ranges.
      • It counts as 0.5 systems in each range bracket for determining the "2 systems" rule.
      • There are three split-range systems possible:
      ImageImage / ImageImage / ImageImage.
  • White Dice
    • On top of these systems, every 'Frame has Image Image, which can be used for any and all of the above functions.
So that's the basis we'll go onwards from.
Image Vesopia - An Ijad-controlled system, where SU and FC are still fighting.
"The moon will guide you on your path when the sun long has set." - Trinity Of-The-Many.
User avatar
Ced23Ric
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1681
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby lumpley » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:40 am

Super quick correction: direct fire range is usually 2-8 units, not 2-12.

-Vincent

CEdit: Amended. :)
lumpley
MFZ:RA Game Designer
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby schoon » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:41 am

Thank-you for the excellent summary Ced23Ric.

I'm really interested in how the interactions will work out with multiple frames designed to compliment on another. (Such as, is it really efficient to have 2 Blue Dice to defend other frames, or does enemy movement bypass it too often, etc.)
User avatar
schoon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:57 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Dukayn » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:46 am

Ced23Ric wrote:• Having Image has no additional benefit.

What about freeing up one of your White dice to use elsewhere? (Assuming your Blue die roll is high enough). I'd call that a benefit.
User avatar
Dukayn
Mod Team
 
Posts: 2811
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:43 pm

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Ced23Ric » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:55 am

Dukayn wrote:
Ced23Ric wrote:• Having Image has no additional benefit.

What about freeing up one of your White dice to use elsewhere? (Assuming your Blue die roll is high enough). I'd call that a benefit.
That's a meta-effect, and not so much attributed to the Image itself. Any system that adds a die to it's particular property frees up a Image, of course. But it is also 25% less room on the 'Frame, and additionally, reduces initiative. It's is no inherent benefit, but a benefit out of circumstance, with drawbacks right attached to it. I see your point, but that point holds true for every system. Basically, you can trade Image for Image, paying with 25% slot alotment and a reduction in initiative. For example, I do not think that Image is a mandatory system on every 'Frame. Depending on use of cover - or a Image Image tank in front of it, or the fact that a 'Frame can contribute to a battle without being a threat himself, but just out of pure synergy, I am sure it is situationally okay to run around without Image installed. ;)
Image Vesopia - An Ijad-controlled system, where SU and FC are still fighting.
"The moon will guide you on your path when the sun long has set." - Trinity Of-The-Many.
User avatar
Ced23Ric
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1681
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Ced23Ric » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:28 pm

Moving right along, we have a couple things to keep in mind when we are building companies.

I know, it's boring, but let's do some (basic) math here. If stations are worth Victory Points, conquering a station and defending a station are primary objectives for us. Sadly, attack/defend contradicts the other source of victory points, which is staying alive. Nevertheless, we need to figure out how to use our potential the best and we need to know what can we strike where and to what effect.

Full-Scale Battles
  • 2 players
    • Everyone brings 3 stations.
    • Everyone has between 5 and 8 'Frames.
    • Defense Ratio: 1,75 - 2,66 'Frames per own station.
    • Available Stations: 6
    • Global Ratio: 0,63 - 1,33 'Frames per station.
    .
  • 3 players
    • Everyone brings 2 stations.
    • Everyone has between 4 and 7 'Frames.
    • Ratio: 2 - 3,5 'Frames per own station.
    • Available Stations: 6
    • Global Ratio: 0,67 - 1,17 'Frames per station.
    .
  • 4 players
    • Everyone brings 2 stations.
    • Everyone has between 4 and 6 'Frames.
    • Ratio: 2 - 3 'Frames per own station.
    • Available Stations: 8
    • Global Ratio: 0,5 - 0,75 'Frames per station.

Skrimishes
  • 2 players
    • Everyone brings 2 stations.
    • Everyone has between 3 and 5 'Frames.
    • Ratio: 1,5 - 2,5 'Frames per own station.
    • Available Stations: 4
    • Global Ratio: 0,75 - 1,25 'Frames per station.
    .
  • 3 players
    • Everyone brings 2 stations.
    • Everyone has between 3 and 5 'Frames.
    • Ratio: 1,5 - 2,5 'Frames per own station.
    • Available Stations: 6
    • Global Ratio: 0,5 - 0,83 'Frames per own station.
    .
  • 4 players
    • Everyone brings 2 stations.
    • Everyone has between 2 and 4 'Frames.
    • Ratio: 1 - 2 'Frames per own station.
    • Available Stations: 8
    • Global Ratio: 0,25 - 0,5 'Frames per own station.
Now this tells us something quite clearly: We cannot conquer and defend all stations, unless we are playing two or three player full-scale battles. Otherwise, we would have no 'Frames available. These ratios are important to understand what we need to achieve to win an engagement. Total Annihilation, Scorched Earth, Complete Dominance will almost never be potential goals for us - we need to focus on midterm goals, on nail-bite victories, on edges.

It should be quite obvious now that the larger the player group becomes, the fiercer the fights will be, as you need so much more ressources to achieve a victory. You could say, if you want to win in a 4-way battle, you need to protect what you have, destroy what you can, conquer as much as comes cheap and stay away from too risky moves, because if it goes wrong, you are not losing "a little something", you may have just cut off your handful of points need to emerge victorious. With that in mind, it appears to be apparent to me that full-scale two/three player games call for big guns, hard hits and vicious destruction, whereas 4-way skirmishes call for cautious tactics to ensure survival and protecting your assets, while taking away the opposing player(s) ressources and adding them to your own.

This puts us in a little bit of a dilemma: You cannot build a company that is good at both.

So, we are pretty much forced to have modular systems for our 'Frames, so we can have either/or, which then renders a discussion about company design (devoid of thinking of your enemies forces, too!) manifold. We will need companies for small games, big games, big games with few and many players, etc. This is awesome, yet nerve-racking for people like me that try and find Jack-Of-All-Trades solutions. Nevertheless, it's motivating.
Image Vesopia - An Ijad-controlled system, where SU and FC are still fighting.
"The moon will guide you on your path when the sun long has set." - Trinity Of-The-Many.
User avatar
Ced23Ric
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1681
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Yojisaka » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:10 pm

"You cannot build a force to do both." Sign of a well designed and balanced game I would think.

I like to measure games by the number of decision points one needs to make to be successful in a game as a measure of it's design.

MF0 already has lots and lots of decision points that have many factors to consider.

-Company build
--# of frames, attachments, weapon types
-- synergy of frame systems between your different frams
- Deployment
-- Where do I put my stations so that I can defend them while aggressively going after my opponents
-- Who do you go after in a multiplayer game?
- Action
-- Each frames turn affects all frames after it.
-- Do you force an opponent frame to activate early to disrupt his plans?
-- Do I retreat one of my wounded frames to preserve it's victory points or push forward for a possible kill?

and on and on and on...

A good game should have very few 'easy' answers to what to do and how to do it.

Yoj
Yojisaka
Newcomer
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:06 am

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby lumpley » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:18 pm

Fun, huh?

If you play the game with the same people a few times, you'll discover that there are a couple of terrible little cycling arms races built into it too. You have to constantly readjust your companies to (try to) stay ahead of your freinds'.

SO MUCH NERVE-RACK.

-Vincent
lumpley
MFZ:RA Game Designer
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby David Artman » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:46 pm

lumpley wrote:If you play the game with the same people a few times, you'll discover that there are a couple of terrible little cycling arms races built into it too.
Still-more indication of a good balance: there's a metagame. We saw it all the time in Vampire: The Eternal Struggle, as folks cycled through stealth-bleed/redirect > politics/combat > bully-bleed/pool-gain and around and around.

Has your regular group begun to feint, yet? (In VTES, that was usually done either with talk pre-game or by playing a round or two with a deck prior to the main tournament event, then bringing out a totally different deck--ideally, a deck that is the 'rock' that beats the observers' reactionary 'scissors' that they bring out hoping to beat your feint's 'paper'.)
User avatar
David Artman
Talkative
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:17 pm
Location: Durham, NC, USA

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Galaxy613 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:12 pm

I fear that
Every 'Frame can have a maximum of 2 of each system. That holds true for weapons aswell.


Might give the wrong impression. You can have up to 4 weapon systems if you want to, but only 2 systems can be used for the same range.

Very well put together thread though, when will the icons because smileys for the forum? :)
Galaxy613
Young Gun
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:16 pm

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Ced23Ric » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:36 pm

Galaxy613 wrote:I fear that
Every 'Frame can have a maximum of 2 of each system. That holds true for weapons aswell.

Might give the wrong impression. You can have up to 4 weapon systems if you want to, but only 2 systems can be used for the same range.
Very well put together thread though, when will the icons because smileys for the forum? :)

Amended for clarity. As for the icons: That's schoons task, I'm just using so many image links so he has to fee lbad for not integrating them already. :D
Image Vesopia - An Ijad-controlled system, where SU and FC are still fighting.
"The moon will guide you on your path when the sun long has set." - Trinity Of-The-Many.
User avatar
Ced23Ric
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1681
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby potsticker » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:07 pm

I believe it was stated that having Image granted also allowed moving through cover. Even if you have no other green dice.
User avatar
potsticker
Talkative
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:53 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Ramcat » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:24 pm

I would start your first post with talk about a frame having two white dice. Then the rest of that :)
Ramcat
Talkative
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:34 am

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby MittenNinja » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:27 pm

Your company setup really will come down to the game to be played. obviously you can lean towards a certain tactic in any game, regardless of the amount of players, etc. but the fine tuning is what the fun part is going to be.

I'm already trying to formulate some builds...
The Transit Gate: A MFZ Podcast
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
MittenNinja
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:38 pm
Location: St Paul, MN

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Ced23Ric » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:28 pm

If that holds to be true, I'll amend the summary up in the first post. That would actually bring an ... interesting element. A 'Frame could walk in, fire his weapons, grab something, lose his gun and then hightail it across the field with vmax, ignoring cover, just run in a straight line. Would be hard to explain though, fluff-wise. The 'Frame doesn't suddenly grow wings because of a broken down missile launcher.

@MittenNinja: I want to do a 'Frame build thread next, give some overviews of possible/viable 'Frames. Would be glad if you'd chime in! :)
Image Vesopia - An Ijad-controlled system, where SU and FC are still fighting.
"The moon will guide you on your path when the sun long has set." - Trinity Of-The-Many.
User avatar
Ced23Ric
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1681
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby MittenNinja » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:40 pm

Ced23Ric wrote:@MittenNinja: I want to do a 'Frame build thread next, give some overviews of possible/viable 'Frames. Would be glad if you'd chime in! :)

Absolutely! I'm planning on doing some "simulation" battles to test out a few builds in action.
The Transit Gate: A MFZ Podcast
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
MittenNinja
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:38 pm
Location: St Paul, MN

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby schoon » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:22 pm

Galaxy613 wrote:...when will the icons because smileys for the forum? :)

Working on it!
User avatar
schoon
Site Admin
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:57 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Dukayn » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:32 pm

schoon wrote:
Galaxy613 wrote:...when will the icons because smileys for the forum? :)

Working on it!

Do you need any help with it?
User avatar
Dukayn
Mod Team
 
Posts: 2811
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:43 pm

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby MittenNinja » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:26 pm

So here's my first attempt at building a cohesive company with a set strategy.

Team A and B:
1x Firebase ( d6Rd d6Rd d8Rd d6Ra d6Ra d6B d6W d6W )
1x Shield ( d6B d6B d6Y d6Y d6W d6W )

Team C:
2x Assault ( d6Rh d6Rh d8Rh d6B d6Y d8G d6W d6W d8Rr )

Tactics:
Use Teams A and B to soften up enemy stations or to give fire support for defense. The "Shields" provide cover and spots for the "Firebases" who pummel their targets from afar. Team C rushes in to capture and tear up the survivors. In larger games you can add a couple more "assault" frames to help defend and take stations.
Last edited by MittenNinja on Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Transit Gate: A MFZ Podcast
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
MittenNinja
Old Guard
 
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:38 pm
Location: St Paul, MN

Re: Strategy Discussion: Company Build

Postby Forged » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Your fire bases are missing half a system, they should be d6Rd d6Rd d8Rd d6Ra d6Ra d6B d6W d6W
User avatar
Forged
Talkative
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:26 am

Next

Return to Mobile Frame Zero General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest