MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby DRevD » Mon May 05, 2014 3:27 am

Good stuff, thanks for putting this together Ced23ric
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby The Bane » Mon May 05, 2014 8:01 am

Glad to see this is nearing completion. For the sake of trying to help to make this the best product possible:

pg 1 under: Why Lego?
"... to build mobile frames for MFZ for."
Should that last 'for' be there?

pg 1 under: Scale & Size Restrictions.
Should it be "Essentially, an average...."?

pg2 under the ruler bit.
This just looks off to me, "especially useful to plot paths through around cover and obstacles" should it be though cover and around obstacles"?

That's where I left off before getting ready for work. If I see anything else this evening, I will drop it here.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Mon May 05, 2014 9:10 am

The Bane wrote:Glad to see this is nearing completion. For the sake of trying to help to make this the best product possible:
[...]
That's where I left off before getting ready for work. If I see anything else this evening, I will drop it here.
Will review when I'm home. All those are good points. Thanks!
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby 4649matt » Mon May 05, 2014 2:37 pm

Since you are nearing completion, I wanted to take the opportunity to offer some proofreading.
Spoiler: show
p.5, 8 "...[frame] exceeds the size-box, measure from the center..."
Is this an errata? It would be clearer to players not familiar with errata to mark them to avoid confusion or conflict regarding where this document differs from the Official printed rules.

p.10 "Bricks count as cover..." "If there are bricks anywhere else..."
Is this also errata? Same as above.

p.10 "You can also build terrain that is not a station or less than 3 bricks in height."
Terrain should satisfy both criteria; replace or with and.

p.12 "Each asset has a point value, determined..."
Superfluous comma.

p.14 "It’s probably to your advantage to place your stations at the advance edge of your perimeter."
It is them in the original text, I interpreted it to mean your frames.

p.16 "Stations and own frames cannot be targeted."
Adding your so that it reads "...and your own frames..." increases readability.

p.17 "...makes for an easy picking!"
I would recommend rephrasing to either, "makes for easy pickings!" or "makes for an easy target!"

p.17 "If you rolled your frame's dice because have an attack..."
I would recommend rephrasing to either, "because you have an attack" or "because there is an attack."

p.17 "Move a number of ruler units equal or less to the result..."
I would recommend changing it to, "equal to or less than..."

p.18 "You can only spot after you made your attack."
I would recommend rephrasing to either, "after you have made your attack." or "after making your attack."

p.19 "...effectively helps your case of destroying a different opponent for you!"
I would recommend rephrasing to either, "helps your case by destroying" or "helps you by destroying..."

p.19 The term "hits" was introduced ("Hits = Spot + Attack - Defense"), but this summary does not explicitly state what to do with hits. This could be clarified by stating, "Roll a number of dice equal to your hits and compare them to the following table to determine damage." The official rules are also ambiguous with their use of the term hits especially between p.117 to p.125.

p.20 "The 1 counts for nothing, 4 and the 5 are hits."
This example should be rephrased to reflect the terms and phrasing used in this document, for example:
"The 1 has no effect; the 4 and 5 deal damage."
"The 4 is resolved first, damaging the cover."

p.20 "Joshua decides to loose 1 defense system."
loose > lose

p.20 "At the end of every round, the doomsday clock counts down by one and any player may reduce the DDC by an additional one, once per player. Play until doomsday is reached.
When it reaches 0, the battle ends, and the player with the highest score wins."
The phrasing here could be clarified.
"At the end of every round, the doomsday clock counts down by one. In order from highest current score to lowest, each player chooses to count down the DDC by 1 or to pass.
When the DDC reaches 0, the battle ends, and the player with the highest score wins."

I hope that these suggestions can be of some use.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Mon May 05, 2014 3:10 pm

4649matt wrote:I hope that these suggestions can be of some use.

All the use, actually, much appreciated. Integrated all but the first two suggestions.

Here's the deal with the errata'd elements:
- "Measure from the center" is a hung-out to dry rules adaption we had in 2012 - it has never been documented, spread or put in an official errata file. I am adding it, because it comes from the source, and it does make sense. Instead of giving larger frames an advantage ("Haha, I can punch you from over HERE!"), it gives them a penalty. That keeps sizes consistent by subtle force.
- "Brick" instead of cover comes from a recent (three days, I think) where Joshua said: "Use your veto right to make the builder break their cover into smaller sections, so you never have the issue where bricks far away from the frame make cover cover." and my position was: "Why not just count the bricks that are in range, instead of forcing builders to break their walls?"

Since MFZ apparently doesn't do errate documents, I am taking these discussions and responses by the designer and implement them right away. It only concerns these two elements, and I feel that by marking them, I am only causing confusion about a quite workable solution. And, in all fairness, I am also stubborn and cannot accept Joshua's solution, because it forces player A to break his builds when player B demands it. That is not only cruel, but also a toxic right to give (and enforce). I rather see cover work how cover works. As Soren pointed out: "If this discussion would be on a paintball field, no one would argue what counts as cover and what not - because it is quite important to be covered when some guy unloads on you."

The rest is all right and corrected. Thanks a ton, I appreciate it.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Mantisking » Mon May 05, 2014 3:23 pm

Ced23Ric wrote:- "Measure from the center" is a hung-out to dry rules adaption we had in 2012 - it has never been documented, spread or put in an official errata file. I am adding it, because it comes from the source, and it does make sense. Instead of giving larger frames an advantage ("Haha, I can punch you from over HERE!"), it gives them a penalty. That keeps sizes consistent by subtle force.

Actually, he's saying don't measure from the center.
Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:Likewise, "measure from the center" has weird effects, like making artillery cover more of the board, and HtH much less. You'll also find occasional frame designs (like the Ghanat) that can be touching another frame, but be outside of HtH range from them.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Mon May 05, 2014 3:27 pm

Mantisking wrote:
Ced23Ric wrote:- "Measure from the center" is a hung-out to dry rules adaption we had in 2012 - it has never been documented, spread or put in an official errata file. I am adding it, because it comes from the source, and it does make sense. Instead of giving larger frames an advantage ("Haha, I can punch you from over HERE!"), it gives them a penalty. That keeps sizes consistent by subtle force.

Actually, he's saying don't measure from the center.
Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:Likewise, "measure from the center" has weird effects, like making artillery cover more of the board, and HtH much less. You'll also find occasional frame designs (like the Ghanat) that can be touching another frame, but be outside of HtH range from them.

... and this is probably why an official errata would be good. Fair enough. I'll cut it out.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby DRevD » Mon May 05, 2014 5:12 pm

Having larger frames is also a disadvantage since it makes it that much easier for someone to get into range of the frame, so it works both ways and balances out.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Blorf » Tue May 06, 2014 8:06 am

4649matt wrote:p.10 "Bricks count as cover..." "If there are bricks anywhere else..."
Is this also errata? Same as above.


While I agree with the way it's worded in the condensed rules, and that's how many players here play the game, Joshua has made it clear recently that this was not his intent.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Tue May 06, 2014 9:35 am

Blorf wrote:Joshua has made it clear recently that this was not his intent.

Joshua's intent seems to be to avoid the confusion by putting the responsibility on the players instead of addressing the problem in-engine. I don't see that as feasible, hence the change. Putting in the original wording leaves the confusion, and Joshua's response when prompted makes players destroy their cover - causing reason for discussion, which I find inelegant.

I do not feel that this is an adequate solution and go by the "bricks" interpretation, both because it is more precise, causes less inter-player friction and it makes more sense, too. You are only in cover behind things that are in front of you, not by things that are part of the same object. That part of the discussion felt a little pointless to begin with.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Mantisking » Tue May 06, 2014 9:50 am

Ced23Ric wrote:Joshua's intent is to avoid the confusion by putting the responsibility on the players instead of addressing the problem itself.

Well, since the players build the battlefield as a group, agreeing on what is and isn't cover is part of starting the game. If the players agree on what it and isn't cover then there should be no problem.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Tue May 06, 2014 10:08 am

Mantisking wrote:Well, since the players build the battlefield as a group, agreeing on what is and isn't cover is part of starting the game. If the players agree on what it and isn't cover then there should be no problem.
Disagreed, for multiple reasons.

1.) Players do not decide what is cover, it is predecided by the rulebook - anything that is not a station or frame with 3 bricks or more in height is cover. They decide how the battlefield's layout looks, using the existing pieces.
Core Rulebook, pg. 75 wrote:Every player has to approve the layout of the battlefield before you begin fielding your companies. Any player can adjust the battlefield layout until all are satisfied.
2.) While some games may have all players involved in building the cover, it is not unlikely that a host builds cover by himself. The rulebook does not specify who builds the cover.
3.) Some builders, evidently so when you look around just this forum alone, build scenic cover, such as downed spaceships - that is, by definition of the rules, cover, yet causes the exact problem mentioned. Joshua asks for "guest players" to invoke their veto right and make the "host player" take such scenic cover apart, to avoid the confusion.

That, now, causes friction. As a builder being asked to take apart something one has built isn't a nice thing - and especially when the engine did not limit cover to, say, the sizebox of a frame (i.e. 10x10x12). You now have three interests colliding: The builder who wanted a scenic piece of cover, the engine which makes that cover source of confusion and the player(s) who are asked to invoke a veto right to make the builder take his cover apart, only for the reason that the engine causes avoidable confusion. The engine does not limit the builder, but becomes blurred when exceeding a size limit that is not mentioned anywhere. Suddenly, there is a conflict between players that was not there before - which is why I do not like Joshua's approach to solve this. It only causes more confusion - what is acceptable cover? Can I veto for cover that is only 1x1x3 and nothing else?

PS: This is going offtopic, Mantis.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby 4649matt » Tue May 06, 2014 11:57 am

Ced23Ric wrote: go by the "bricks" interpretation...

Many games I have played have had some 'house-rules' applied to them, whether they were for clarification, balance, or just preference. Could you include this as a "Suggested house-rule" or "Alternate Rule" with a brief description?

ex:
"Alternate Rule: Cover by discrete bricks
By reducing abstraction, you can increase the simulation of cover.
Bricks only count as cover if they are within 1 unit range of the target. Exclude any bricks outside of 1 unit from the target, even if they are part of the same structure."
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Tue May 06, 2014 1:20 pm

4649matt wrote:Could you include this as a "Suggested house-rule" or "Alternate Rule" with a brief description?

I think that is fair enough. I'll see how I can cover that, concise but clear. Thank you for the input.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby spacemonkey » Tue May 06, 2014 1:44 pm

Maybe this is still on your to-do list but could you add page numbers at the bottom of each (indexed) page?
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Tue May 06, 2014 4:39 pm

spacemonkey wrote:Maybe this is still on your to-do list but could you add page numbers at the bottom of each (indexed) page?

It indeed is on my to do list and will happen, promised!

Just gotta figure out a way to do it that I like.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Simplytherob » Mon May 12, 2014 2:11 pm

Ced23Ric wrote:Revision 0.9 is uploaded, and Condensed is nearing completion. Another pass for typos, grammar mistakes has been done, a few rules (especially about cover, damage to cover and to frames behind cover) have been made more clear, and the demo rules by Vincent, inluding the image by cedric-ms have been intregrated. The idea of a glossary was cut, because it seems hardly necessary to for 26 indexed pages.

Not much left until it is 100% done. From he looks of it, it is feature complete and content-wise, too. You can use this document without any inhibitations for gameplay.

I am very excited to see thefinal product!
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby ruhe.bryan » Tue May 20, 2014 12:09 pm

Hey, this is terrific. Thanks for this resource. A few things I see that need corrected:

On the page that starts "The dice of MFZ."
This is what is currently written: "You will need a handful dice to make sure everyone can play out their turn with dice needing to be passed around."

Shouldn't this be: "You will need a handful dice to make sure everyone can play out their turn without dice needing to be passed around."

Also, it might be helpful to write out Single Shot Rockets the first time it appears, at the bottom of that same page, and include a page reference, perhaps like so:
"Each company also has 3 Single Shot Rockets (SSR) to be assigned to any of their frames (see "Frames: additional dice," page ##)."

There is an unnecessary apostrophe on page 8 of the PDF under "Range increments":
"Each weapon system only works within it's increment."

At the end of the first paragraph in section "Resolving damage" on page 19 of the document, the period is missing.

And a suggestion: giving up a white die as a system is allowed, as stated by Josh elsewhere on the forum, but he was sure to say that it is an "advanced rule" not recommended for beginners. I do think, however, it might fit nicely into the book here. Something like this:
"ADVANCED RULE: When a player's frame sustains damage, that player can elect to sacrifice one of the frame's white dice instead of one system. Since white dice are wild, this decision would significantly decrease a frame's adaptability, but it may also give you one more crucial chance to roll that red 8-sided attack die, for example."

Finally, all eight of the frame slots on the Company Overview sheet are numbered 1. Is there a reason for this?

Thanks for your hard work!
Last edited by ruhe.bryan on Tue May 20, 2014 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby Ced23Ric » Tue May 20, 2014 12:39 pm

ruhe.bryan wrote:Finally, all eight of the frame slots on the Company Overview sheet are numbered 1. Is there a reason for this?

Yes, there is a reason! I was lazy and copy/pasted the same image 8 times. :D
ruhe.bryan wrote:Thanks for your hard work!

Thank you for your feedback. I think I now have enough responses for another iteration - will get that done as soon as I can muster enough energy to get into it again.
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Re: MFZ:Condensed - A 20 pages rules summary for MFZ:RA

Postby ruhe.bryan » Tue May 20, 2014 12:42 pm

I just edited my previous post again with some nitpicky things, but I will make new posts if I find more to suggest. :mrgreen:
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