Spotting and LoS

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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ChaosChild » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:32 pm

It seems like an odd rule when you're reading the rulebook, but the first time you play the game it makes perfect sense.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:26 pm

ChaosChild wrote:It seems like an odd rule when you're reading the rulebook, but the first time you play the game it makes perfect sense.

It's kinda the theme of MFZ. "I know it sounds weird reading it in the book. Just play it, it works."
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ImagoX » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:38 pm

Yeah, that makes sense, I suppose... they obviously wanted the game to go quickly, which rules like "the game begins as one of the point attacker's frames comes under fire from one of the defender's frames" helps to promote. Weird that there's no concept of "full cover" though at SOME point.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:52 am

actually, i just thought of something regarding "full cover"

this is the question:


C

```````````
A
B





A and B are both within hand to hand range of the wall and each other (it is a very close fight). C is shooting at B. Which cover takes the damage if C misses B but rolls a 5 (triggering a hit vs "cover")?

Edit: Hmm...the spacing didn't quite work out the way i wanted. To be clear, B is shifted slightly to the right of A, but still covered mostly.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ImagoX » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:59 pm

I'd *assume* (dangerouns word, that, I know...) that the closest cover would take damage first and then, if there are any further shots that come in after the wall is gone, THEN they'd go into the blocking frame. Interested to see if anyone agrees. I can't find this specific scenario detailed in the rule book (but maybe I'm missing it).
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Mercutio » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:02 pm

peglegpete wrote:actually, i just thought of something regarding "full cover"

this is the question:


Code: Select all
C
       
```````````
         A   
           B






A and B are both within hand to hand range of the wall and each other (it is a very close fight). C is shooting at B. Which cover takes the damage if C misses B but rolls a 5 (triggering a hit vs "cover")?

Edit: Hmm...the spacing didn't quite work out the way i wanted. To be clear, B is shifted slightly to the right of A, but still covered mostly.
I would argue that B is not, in fact, in HtH range with the wall.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Mantisking » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:04 pm

peglegpete wrote:actually, i just thought of something regarding "full cover"
this is the question:
Code: Select all
C
       
```````````
         A   
           B

A and B are both within hand to hand range of the wall and each other (it is a very close fight). C is shooting at B. Which cover takes the damage if C misses B but rolls a 5 (triggering a hit vs "cover")?

Edit: Hmm...the spacing didn't quite work out the way i wanted. To be clear, B is shifted slightly to the right of A, but still covered mostly.

Mercutio wrote:I would argue that B is not, in fact, in HtH range with the wall.

Agreed.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Goober » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:18 pm

Mercutio wrote:I would argue that B is not, in fact, in HtH range with the wall.


I think the idea is that they'd be all smooshed up together against the wall. It's hard to show that with ASCII.

I would go with closest cover first, personally.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:32 pm

Goober wrote:
Mercutio wrote:I would argue that B is not, in fact, in HtH range with the wall.


I think the idea is that they'd be all smooshed up together against the wall. It's hard to show that with ASCII.

I would go with closest cover first, personally.

yeah, more like that. it is tough to show what i mean, but it would be harder to try to explain it without the diagram at all.

a better way to describe it would be if A had it's back up against the wall and B was up against A fighting it hand to hand.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ChaosChild » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:40 pm

All depends how big frame A is. It's hard to imagine a frame skinny enough to fit in between B and the wall while still keeping B in HtH range of the wall.

That said, if it did happen I'd apply damage to the wall first.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Mercutio » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:21 pm

ChaosChild wrote:All depends how big frame A is. It's hard to imagine a frame skinny enough to fit in between B and the wall while still keeping B in HtH range of the wall.

That said, if it did happen I'd apply damage to the wall first.

This. I am looking at the frames in my collection and there isn't one of them that could fit in a conceived space that would allow it to be between a frame and cover while the other frame can also be with hth range of that wall. Even my tiny combots.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ChaosChild » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:56 pm

After saying that, I actually went away and built a frame that could fit these criteria. It's decidedly under 2" front to back (we use 2" as a unit for simplicity) so it could conceivably fit if it was backed right up against the wall.

That said though, it does look a bit naff.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:10 pm

not to harp on it too much (i really am just curious, and "it just won't happen" seems like an odd answer), bu if i remember correctly there is the option to shrink or enlarge what "one unit" means in a given game.

if the unit were a bit larger and did allow this to happen, what would happen?

so far consensus seems to be that the nearer cover would take damage first.

to apply the same theory to a different scenario, put the wall between A and B, but on the edge so that they can fight around it. C is still behind B and still shooting at A.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:27 pm

Common sense seems to prevail for this one. If there's a wall in the way, it's going to be hit first until there's a big enough hole in it that you can hit what's behind it.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Mercutio » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:52 pm

peglegpete wrote:not to harp on it too much (i really am just curious, and "it just won't happen" seems like an odd answer), bu if i remember correctly there is the option to shrink or enlarge what "one unit" means in a given game.

if the unit were a bit larger and did allow this to happen, what would happen?
To answer this - the difference in units would also apply to what is within HtH range, too. I realize "it just won't happen" isn't satisfactory. I am, however, still trying to figure out exactly how it would happen. It would require the A frame to take up less than HtH range, and the B frame to be practically standing on top of the A frame.

peglegpete wrote:to apply the same theory to a different scenario, put the wall between A and B, but on the edge so that they can fight around it. C is still behind B and still shooting at A.
Like this?

Code: Select all
        C


        B     }HtH range with wall and A
--------------}Wall
        A     }HtH range with wall and B


In this scenario, I'm not sure there is a right answer. I can see justifications either way.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:03 am

It's the target's choice.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:52 pm

thanks!
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:26 pm

GHAH

It's COVER which means it's the ATTACKER'S choice. That's what I meant to say above.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Tomppa » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:56 am

Thread necromancy, yes I know, but this question came up in a situation in which the target frame was partly behind cover, partly behind another frame:

Wouldn't it be the defender's choice (as in, do they "cover" behind the wall, or behind the other frame) as opposed to being an attacker's choice (the attacker has no control over behind what obstacle the target is)?
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Cake » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:36 am

Tomppa wrote:Thread necromancy, yes I know, but this question came up in a situation in which the target frame was partly behind cover, partly behind another frame:

Wouldn't it be the defender's choice (as in, do they "cover" behind the wall, or behind the other frame) as opposed to being an attacker's choice (the attacker has no control over behind what obstacle the target is)?


If both frames were within Hand-to-Hand range of the wall, then I'd say it was the attackers choice, based off Joshua's response above.

If the target was in cover behind the other frame, but not in cover behind the wall, then it'd be the other frame that acted as cover.

If that makes any sense...
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