Spotting and LoS

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Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:14 pm

here's another stupid newbie question:

does a frame need Line of sight to a target in order for it to be a named target?

If you do not need line of sight, and a frame is behind a a piece of cover, but not in hand to hand with any of them (giving the cover modifier), are they shot as normal?

If you do, and a frame has two yellow dice, and therefore can spot anything on the battlefield, can they shoot anything on the battlefield if they have an artillery range weapon?

sorry if these questions are getting annoying, i'm just trying to clear up anything that seems odd now before i start playing.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Goober » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:45 pm

The way I understand it:

You can name any target for your attack, even if it will be impossible for you to get into range of it. If you don't end up in a range where you can make an attack after you move, then you just don't attack. Cover/terrain has nothing to do with naming targets.

There is no "line of sight". Only in and out of cover, which only counts cover within hand-to-hand range of the defender. If there's a building between you, but the defender is more than 1 unit of distance away from it, it's not cover and doesn't block attacks or spotting, even if the attacker is right up against it (only the defender's cover matters).

Artillery range weapons can attack anyone on the field so long as the target is not within direct fire or hand-to-hand range of the attacker. Normal cover rules apply, which is to say only cover within hand-to-hand of the defender that is between the defender and the attacker. You don't need anyone to spot first, nor do you need two yellow systems, to use artillery weapons in this way. It's how they always work.

[Edit]: To clarify, spotting and naming your target are two very different things. Naming your target is the first thing you do, and just says who you're planning to attack, while spotting is the last thing you do, and grants a bonus to other people attacking that target.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ChaosChild » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:12 pm

Goober wrote:There is no "line of sight".


This is the most important bit, and it can be a bit odd for players who are used to other wargames that have detailed rules about line of sight and who can see what. The simple answer in MF0 is that every frame can see every bit of the board, regardless of scenery, other frames or anything else. The only things that matter are range and cover.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:29 pm

ChaosChild wrote:
Goober wrote:There is no "line of sight".


This is the most important bit, and it can be a bit odd for players who are used to other wargames that have detailed rules about line of sight and who can see what. The simple answer in MF0 is that every frame can see every bit of the board, regardless of scenery, other frames or anything else. The only things that matter are range and cover.


this is exactly the weirdness that i'm having with it...from the looks of the examples i've seen though, terrain is a bit more dense on the field so that sort of makes up for it.

thank you!

edit: wait...does this mean that a model standing in front of a piece of terrain but within hand to hand still has cover...?
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:01 pm

peglegpete wrote:edit: wait...does this mean that a model standing in front of a piece of terrain but within hand to hand still has cover...?

yes
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby morganm » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:36 pm

My son really struggled with this... he kept wanting to apply LoS.

The only things that matter:
- Is cover within H2H range?
- Is the cover in between attacking frame and it's target?

We are pretty generous with cover because the rules state that even if cover is in H2H range but only a small portion of it is in between the two frames the target is still 'in cover'.

If there is something 3 bricks high between to frames but the target is not in H2H range of this then the target is not in cover. Again, forget about LoS, just because this piece of cover is between the two frames doesn't matter because the target is not in range of it to be in cover.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:01 pm

morganm wrote:If there is something 3 bricks high between to frames but the target is not in H2H range of this then the target is not in cover. Again, forget about LoS, just because this piece of cover is between the two frames doesn't matter because the target is not in range of it to be in cover.

That's right. Cover isn't just an obstacle between your frame and theirs. It's the other guy's frame actively hiding behind whatever cover they have found. So a wall that is half-way between you and him isn't cover if he's not within H2H range because he's not actively hiding behind it, it just happens to be in the way.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:56 pm

ok. that makes more sense. i was concerned that have a wall behind a frame who is being shot from the front (the terrain is not between the two), that the one next to the wall still gets cover. if that's how the rules work, the i'll play it that way, it just seemed weird.

it sounds like, from morganm, that the terrain still has to be between the target and the attacker, but that if the target is out of hand to hand with the terrain, and in range, they can be shot at no matter what.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ChaosChild » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:00 pm

That's exactly right. If the cover is in between the attacker and defender (even if only partially) and the defender is within HtH range of it then it applies. If either of those conditions isn't true then there's no cover, regardless of what else may be between the 2 frames.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:51 pm

I think this might be helpful.

Image
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby peglegpete » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:34 am

that is amazingly helpful. thank you!
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Zero Revenge » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:37 am

Dukayn wrote:
peglegpete wrote:edit: wait...does this mean that a model standing in front of a piece of terrain but within hand to hand still has cover...?

yes

I thought Hand-to-hand combat ignores cover?
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby gatlinggouf927 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:16 am

Zero Revenge wrote:
Dukayn wrote:
peglegpete wrote:edit: wait...does this mean that a model standing in front of a piece of terrain but within hand to hand still has cover...?

yes

I thought Hand-to-hand combat ignores cover?


If the enemy frame next to the one in cover attacks then yes,I think Dukayn means in regard to other frames who fire upon it from afar.

Just because one of my frames is in melee range of a target doesn't mean my other units can see him through cover.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:33 am

gatlinggouf927 wrote:
Zero Revenge wrote:I thought Hand-to-hand combat ignores cover?

If the enemy frame next to the one in cover attacks then yes,I think Dukayn means in regard to other frames who fire upon it from afar.

Yes, sorry it wasn't clear from my one word answer previously :)

Hand to hand attacks ignore cover, but that frame would still have cover from direct fire or artillery attacks.

Heck, I've even seen a frame engaged in Hand to Hand used AS cover from a direct fire attack from another direction :) That was fun.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:52 pm

Dukayn wrote:Heck, I've even seen a frame engaged in Hand to Hand used AS cover from a direct fire attack from another direction :) That was fun.


That's actually the reason the rule is there! I love getting to hit both enemies at once, particularly when the covering frame has a high defense, since the defense number of cover doesn't matter.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:12 pm

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:That's actually the reason the rule is there! I love getting to hit both enemies at once, particularly when the covering frame has a high defense, since the defense number of cover doesn't matter.

Yeah, what my opponent didn't like was that it was his frame that I was taking cover from, using another frame of his as the cover :)
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:05 am

That's the thing to do!
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby ImagoX » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:17 pm

Just out of curiosity, why is this rule the way it is? I can see why this would be the case if things were low enough that they could be seen over, but is there terrain/cover that DOES block a model's ability to be targeted? Large buildings, etc.?
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby tallyrand » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:03 pm

I think the rule is mainly that way to limit any advantage frame size, either extra large or extra small, has on the game.
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Re: Spotting and LoS

Postby Dukayn » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:09 pm

In my mind (not sure if this is the case for the designers) it also avoids the traditional tabletop wargame anal retentiveness with getting out the laser pointer and having huge arguments about whether or not the target was visible enough to get a shot off, etc.
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