Rules preview: fielding your companies

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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby timonkey » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:14 pm

randolph wrote:
timonkey wrote:For the defender, do all stations have to be within DF of all other stations?

Yes:
lumpley wrote:Place your stations on the battlefield. Place them wherever you want, but within direct fire range of one another.

Or did you mean when you're using 2-player full-scale combat rules with 3 stations a piece?

timonkey wrote:Here's an oddity, what if the defender puts his frame between his stations? You can't place the point frame correctly.

This is only possible if the stations are significantly larger than the frames, or you've wedged everything in a corner. If you have your two stations adjacent to and on opposite sides of a frame (the largest possible defensive perimeter around a frame for 2 stations), the shortest distance to the frame will be along the line perpendicular to the line drawn between the centerpoint of those two stations. The frame and stations will have nonzero dimensions, so that shortest distance will not be equal to the total radius of the defensive perimeter, as the centerpoints of the stations will be pushed out from the centerpoint of the frame. You can get this to happen with large enough stations and a small enough frame, but I assume that falls under the "build to this scale" rules. Not sure about the corner case though ;)


I'm talking about with three stations. Say you put your stations forming a triangle. Just put your frames in the middle.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby lumpley » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:53 pm

You can do that if you want to.

I'd recommend instead just telling your friends that you've changed your mind and you don't really feel like playing after all!

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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby timonkey » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:13 pm

lumpley wrote:You can do that if you want to.


But then we can't set up the point frame. I'm not saying that I think it's a good idea for the defender to setup that way, but that someone might try to.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:46 pm

If your job is to defend some stations, and you see a bunch of hostiles coming over to fight, and your response is to cluster in the middle rather than put yourself between the stations and the hostiles... then yeah as Vincent says you aren't there to play. And as I sarcastically pointed out in another thread, the rules seem to assume proper basic tactics.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Xca|iber » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:05 pm

Not that I don't understand the spirit of the rules, but unless there's something written down saying "don't put your stations/frames in a triangle configuration to prevent a legal placement of the point frame," isn't the possibility of such a scenario... bad?

I mean, when I first read the rules, the triangular formation with frames in the middle was the first deployment style I thought of, without any intent of breaking the game. As a WH40k player, objective setups like that are pretty common, and it's often beneficial to stand in the middle to allow capture of any or all of the objectives. Of course, MF0 is a different game, but as a new player, if I hadn't read this thread, I (or one of my friends) might have actually set up the stations like that, purely from old habits and not realizing that it messes up the deployment rules.

It's certainly valid that players who purposely try to set up impossible situations to break the game should not be playing, but this seems like an issue that could come up for a lot of new players without any malicious intent.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby lumpley » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:32 pm

Huh. It wouldn't have occured to me.

No sweat. I'll add a clause to the text. Don't set up that way!

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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:22 am

I wish I understood.

You mean, you set up so your stations, plus your point frame, take up the whole table?

Can someone draw me a diagram?
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby timonkey » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:43 am

No. Defender sets up three stations in a triangle. And then places his first two frames inside that triangle.

The attacker goes to place his point frame, but can't, because there isn't any place outside the defender's perimeter, but within DF of one of the defender's frames.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:49 am

AH HAH! Got it!

Yeah, little edge-case bug. Also, tactically, a bad idea; you'll lose your goodies but quick; you're hanging them all out there. Assuming the attacking player could figure out where to place.

Why do you do that in Warhammer? Why don't you want your dudes between your objectives and your enemies?
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Xca|iber » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:04 am

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:AH HAH! Got it!

Yeah, little edge-case bug. Also, tactically, a bad idea; you'll lose your goodies but quick; you're hanging them all out there. Assuming the attacking player could figure out where to place.

Why do you do that in Warhammer? Why don't you want your dudes between your objectives and your enemies?


In Warhammer 40k, the only thing that matters with objectives is who is standing on top of them at the moment the game ends. So what ends up happening in "seize ground" missions (3-5 neutral objectives around the board) with mid-range/up-close armies is that it's beneficial to cluster around the objectives in the middle, so that right before the end of the game (turns 5-7), you can easily move onto any or all of the objectives, while throughout the game remaining at an effective range from your opponent.

Basically, keeping your objectives in your back line is only useful if you have something tough or fast that can sit on it or run to it (respectively) and still contribute to the game from all the way across the board (since players' back lines are on opposite sides of the table, unlike in MF0). It's perhaps a bit more complicated than that, but suffice it to say that it's simply a result of the way armies fight, move, and deploy, which differs very significantly from MF0.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:47 am

Oh, I see, so for you to own it, you can't consider it won at any point? You have to be the last and only guy standing on it at the end of the game?
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Xca|iber » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:21 am

Joshua A.C. Newman wrote:Oh, I see, so for you to own it, you can't consider it won at any point? You have to be the last and only guy standing on it at the end of the game?


Yes, and only certain types of units can "own" objectives at the end of the game.

It's admittedly very different from MF0, and I don't expect many of the specific strategic and tactical norms will carry over between systems, but it occurred to me that veteran wargamers may use familiar gaming systems as a "starting point" for their battle plans while they learn the ins and outs of MF0.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Joshua A.C. Newman » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:44 pm

Interesting. Thanks!
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Ced23Ric » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:06 pm

Those units are called "scoring units", and they usually come (special rules excluded) from only one of the five categories: Troops. The other four, HQ, Elites, Fast Attack and Support usually aren't able to claim objectives. Troop selection are also mandatory, but usually, in comparision to Elite or Fast, slow and/or outgunned, so you have to find the means to remove hostiles from an objective while preserving enough scoring units to actually claim the objective when the game is over.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby timonkey » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:44 pm

So, say I want to introduce some people to the game. But I'm the one with the LEGOs and I don't want to spend a bunch of time building frames (although that is also awesome) when I could be playing. How do I handle that?

Do I build companies for them that are as big as are allowed to be fielded by the size game we're playing and let them trim down to the size they want, and maybe move some attachments around? I feel like if I'm teaching them the game they're not really capable of speccing frames or fielding companies as they don't have enough information to make proper decisions.

Do I build a bunch of frames and do a draft?
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby David Artman » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:11 pm

timonkey wrote:Do I build a bunch of frames and do a draft?
If you're teaching (I demo a LOT) then bring full, balanced companies and teach the game. Would you teach Magic: The Gathering by starting with deck building, or even booster drafting to augment starter decks? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Once they know how to play, and assuming they like the game, they could buy maybe three of the "best micro sets" for bits and build to their hearts' content. If they aren't willing to go in for LEGOs even to the tune of, say, $20 (on average 200 bits) then I reckon you'd have to have "build sessions" with your LEGOs and then meet again to actually play. Or, you know... whatever you think you gotta do to protect your precious brix!
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby randolph » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:11 pm

timonkey wrote:So, say I want to introduce some people to the game. But I'm the one with the LEGOs and I don't want to spend a bunch of time building frames (although that is also awesome) when I could be playing. How do I handle that?

Do I build companies for them that are as big as are allowed to be fielded by the size game we're playing and let them trim down to the size they want, and maybe move some attachments around? I feel like if I'm teaching them the game they're not really capable of speccing frames or fielding companies as they don't have enough information to make proper decisions.

Do I build a bunch of frames and do a draft?

My suggestion: build enough frames to have three companies, sized 4, 5, and 7, and have a few extra weapons so you can tweak a bit on-the-fly. Ask if anyone wants to be the defender, and offer to play it yourself if no one does, and let the other two decide by coinflip who gets 5 and 7. Ask them how they want the makeup of their companies, i.e. "out of 5, how many artillery, how many melee, how many medium range?" and shuffle weapons around to make it happen - but let them know that ordinarily, you have to bring your forces with a fixed loadout to the table, without knowledge of opposing forces.
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby lumpley » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:13 pm

What I do is bring a few coherent companies to the table, companies I'd like to play myself. One 3-unit company, one 4-unit, one 5-unit. I introduce them super briefly and have the players choose which they want. Like, "this company's fast-moving and aggressive but it has to be to win, this one is a real meat grinder but they're hard to swing around once you've got them moving, this one is built for defense and counterstriking. Who wants which?"

If you're teaching the game to newcomers, definitely start with a skirmish-size battle, 3-5 units per company.

If you think you might get to play a second game, you can bring a few extra frames along to change things up, and have the players make their own decisions about what to add, what to remove, what to swap in and out.

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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby timonkey » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:22 pm

Thanks!
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Re: Rules preview: fielding your companies

Postby Mantisking » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:09 am

lumpley wrote:What I do is bring a few coherent companies to the table, companies I'd like to play myself. One 3-unit company, one 4-unit, one 5-unit. I introduce them super briefly and have the players choose which they want. Like, "this company's fast-moving and aggressive but it has to be to win, this one is a real meat grinder but they're hard to swing around once you've got them moving, this one is built for defense and counterstriking. Who wants which?"

I did something similar at PAX East. I had three teams, one 4-unit, one 5-unit, and one 8-unit. Each had a different loadout and strategy. I learned a good deal about those teams and I tweaked them to be better -- for play and demonstration purposes -- in the intervening time.
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