IO Without Frame Companies

[Luke_BMM]

Over in the Central MA thread...

...
We were planning on playing a game of Intercept Orbit without Frame Companies. We may have time afterwards for a game of Blitz Rapid Attack.

I was just curious how the frame-less IO game came about and if it's just about putting the emphasis on ships and maneuvering or if there's more to it.
Does it drastically alter the effectiveness of Support and Point weapons?
Any practical experience with this yet or just is this something you're trying once?

[Mantisking]

Over in the Central MA thread...

...
We were planning on playing a game of Intercept Orbit without Frame Companies. We may have time afterwards for a game of Blitz Rapid Attack.

I was just curious how the frame-less IO game came about and if it's just about putting the emphasis on ships and maneuvering or if there's more to it.

I think it came about as an experiment to see just how much Frame Squads effect the game. On my part, I just wanted a pure starship combat game.

Does it drastically alter the effectiveness of Support and Point weapons?

We don't know yet.

Any practical experience with this yet or just is this something you're trying once?

Right now it's just an experiment. We'll see if we play this way more than once after the game is all over.

[Mantisking]

Does it drastically alter the effectiveness of Support and Point weapons?

It basically did away with Point Defense. We only saw one roll at that range and it was using White dice.

[Meaker VI]

Does it drastically alter the effectiveness of Support and Point weapons?

It basically did away with Point Defense. We only saw one roll at that range and it was using White dice.

Maybe add one-shot torpedoes that have and (or something else reasonably powerful) for attack, and can only be hit with PD, cannot be spotted, and cannot defend? You get X/fleet, like one-shot missiles and in place of the frame companies. If you'd want to limit their range, keep the black dice and use those for fuel as with companies. On empty, the torpedo sits there like a mine with 1 range or drifts at 4 units forward/turn till it's off the table, whichever makes the most sense to you.

That'd make PD more valuable, but keep the frames out.

[Mantisking]

Does it drastically alter the effectiveness of Support and Point weapons?

It basically did away with Point Defense. We only saw one roll at that range and it was using White dice.

Maybe add one-shot torpedoes that have and (or something else reasonably powerful) for attack, and can only be hit with PD, cannot be spotted, and cannot defend? You get X/fleet, like one-shot missiles and in place of the frame companies. If you'd want to limit their range, keep the black dice and use those for fuel as with companies. On empty, the torpedo sits there like a mine with 1 range or drifts at 4 units forward/turn till it's off the table, whichever makes the most sense to you.

That'd make PD more valuable, but keep the frames out.

It's be easier to just convert SSRs to Point Defense range. The reason for PD being glossed over was 1) the lack of Frame Squads to defend against, and 2) Assault does damage on a 4, 5, or 6 which is better than PD.

[Luke_BMM]

Additionally (or alternately), how about swapping the 4+ damage from Assault to Point. Doing so unfortunately also weakens Assault over Support, which might be a problem.

Point weapons ignore cover and always hit on 4-6.
Assault and Support weapons cause damage on 5-6 (with no cover) or 6 with cover.

[Mantisking]

Additionally (or alternately), how about swapping the 4+ damage from Assault to Point. Doing so unfortunately also weakens Assault over Support, which might be a problem.

I wouldn't say it weakens Assault in relation to Support.

Point weapons ignore cover and always hit on 4-6. Assault and Support weapons cause damage on 5-6 (with no cover) or 6 with cover.

Which puts it more in line with Rapid Attack.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

...except that there's almost never any cover.

[Luke_BMM]

Additionally (or alternately), how about swapping the 4+ damage from Assault to Point. Doing so unfortunately also weakens Assault over Support, which might be a problem.

I wouldn't say it weakens Assault in relation to Support.

I just meant relatively, based on the assumption that they're evenly matched to start with. Assault gets ~16% worse (only damaging on a 5+) and Support stays the same. I still get the impression that - without the threat of frames being catapulted at the ship - Support already seems likely to be stronger than in a standard game, leading to people using their maneuvering to hang back as far as possible.

...except that there's almost never any cover.

The big deal was changing the 4+ and 5+, really. The cover thing was a side note to make it more consistent with RA.

Also, another assumption I was making (but forgot to mention) was that double-Blue support frigates seemed like they'd be a popular choice for providing mobile cover. Without the threat of Frame companies taking over ships, Defense seems like it would get an indirect buff and using a frigate with the mobility to keep it a short ways in front seemed like a wise move.


All of the above is, however, all theory and without any practical experience.

[Mantisking]

...except that there's almost never any cover.

True.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Oh! Hey! You can make it so ships can board each other from Dogfight or Point range. Roll as many dice as each ship has remaining systems. When a ship gets captured, use the new resistance rules. Every time the original owner of the ship removes a 4+, they get to remove an additional die on the next round. Once they've removed a die from each system, they've recaptured their ship. If a friendly (or just allied) ship helps them, they roll a die for every die they've removed and add them to the new boarder's dice.

[Mantisking]

Oh! Hey! You can make it so ships can board each other from Dogfight or Point range. Roll as many dice as each ship has remaining systems. When a ship gets captured, use the new resistance rules. Every time the original owner of the ship removes a 4+, they get to remove an additional die on the next round. Once they've removed a die from each system, they've recaptured their ship. If a friendly (or just allied) ship helps them, they roll a die for every die they've removed and add them to the new boarder's dice.

Interesting. But the whole point, for us, behind playing without Frame Companies was to remove the Boarding rules from the game equation.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Hm! OK, that means that you've got very limited ways to score. In :RA, you can just fall back to Plan B, but in :IO, it's hard to even turn the ships around.

Most of the time, you keep HVAs close because someone can just drop a company on them at any point. This means the best thing to do is put them far away, removing them as much as possible from the tactical space.

I think you'll have to fall back to source material here:

In WWII, the job of the navy was largely to support/prevent troop movements. Nation 1 would need to move soldiers, materiel, or supplies between islands A and B, so they'd send them with an escort. It's the job of Navy 2 to stop them.

So what you'd want here is a wholly different setup for determining score, and likely conditions that included getting an HVA from point A to B.

Fortunately, I have plans for this kind of thing! But it takes actual game design to make it work!

[Meaker VI]

Oh! Hey! You can make it so ships can board each other from Dogfight or Point range. Roll as many dice as each ship has remaining systems. When a ship gets captured, use the new resistance rules. Every time the original owner of the ship removes a 4+, they get to remove an additional die on the next round. Once they've removed a die from each system, they've recaptured their ship. If a friendly (or just allied) ship helps them, they roll a die for every die they've removed and add them to the new boarder's dice.

Interesting. But the whole point, for us, behind playing without Frame Companies was to remove the Boarding rules from the game equation.

This would be a great way to make Mobile Frame Zero: Dread Pirate though

Not a terrible idea actually, and if you had enough of those old/new pirate-ship sets, that'd be an epic battle scene.

[eatrepeat]

This would be a great way to make Mobile Frame Zero: Dread Pirate though

Not a terrible idea actually, and if you had enough of those old/new pirate-ship sets, that'd be an epic battle scene.

And one large living room floor cleared for it, not to mention cost... Micro pirate ships? Hmmm no this is still missing a feel, can't do mobile frames in the past... Micro airships!!! Holy melons of great juice! Pirate airship frame bonanza! IO rules would still be perfectly fitting and the 4x4 might be on scale but I suck at that sort of thing. Anyway I love this idea!

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Not gonna say I don't have any plans for a Micro Construct Tactics Nova pirate ship game. But I'm not gonna say I do, either.

[charonlarp]

Oh! Hey! You can make it so ships can board each other from Dogfight or Point range. Roll as many dice as each ship has remaining systems. When a ship gets captured, use the new resistance rules. Every time the original owner of the ship removes a 4+, they get to remove an additional die on the next round. Once they've removed a die from each system, they've recaptured their ship. If a friendly (or just allied) ship helps them, they roll a die for every die they've removed and add them to the new boarder's dice.

This just blew my mind.
As a friend and I were discussing playing a game without frames.
Gives the game a space pirate-y feel to it. And Considering that none of my ships match... I had already decided that my fleet would be a pirate fleet.
I giggled maniacally when I read this idea.

Also... Sorry for necro on this topic.

[Sovietshadow]

Yay pirates! And its ok that you necro'd it. It's always better to get a fresh perspective. As long as your just necro-ing old posts and not zombies, we'll be ok.

[Mantisking]

Here's the battle report from the game in question. Part 1. Part 2.